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	<title>Comments on: Better Online Citations &#8211; Details Part 1</title>
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	<description>genealogy, software, ideas, and innovation</description>
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		<title>By: Better Online Citations – Details Part 4 (MARC XML) &#124; ThinkGenealogy</title>
		<link>http://www.thinkgenealogy.com/2009/04/28/better-online-citations-details-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-1112</link>
		<dc:creator>Better Online Citations – Details Part 4 (MARC XML) &#124; ThinkGenealogy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 08:07:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkgenealogy.com/?p=559#comment-1112</guid>
		<description>[...] posts have explored a better way to cite online sources (Part 1), how citation information can be stored as a file using GEDCOM format (Part 2) and MARC format [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] posts have explored a better way to cite online sources (Part 1), how citation information can be stored as a file using GEDCOM format (Part 2) and MARC format [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Better Online Citations – Details Part 3 (MARC) &#124; ThinkGenealogy</title>
		<link>http://www.thinkgenealogy.com/2009/04/28/better-online-citations-details-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-1110</link>
		<dc:creator>Better Online Citations – Details Part 3 (MARC) &#124; ThinkGenealogy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 07:06:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkgenealogy.com/?p=559#comment-1110</guid>
		<description>[...] A Better Way to Cite Online Sources.  Some of the suggestions that came from the survey and posts Details Part 1 and Details Part 2 (GEDCOM) was why not use an existing [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] A Better Way to Cite Online Sources.  Some of the suggestions that came from the survey and posts Details Part 1 and Details Part 2 (GEDCOM) was why not use an existing [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Randy Wilson</title>
		<link>http://www.thinkgenealogy.com/2009/04/28/better-online-citations-details-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-984</link>
		<dc:creator>Randy Wilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 18:27:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkgenealogy.com/?p=559#comment-984</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s a difference between a &quot;file format&quot; and a data model.  If a common data model for citations was defined, then that same model could be implemented as part of a GEDCOM extension (for conclusional genealogical data); implemented as a file format for &quot;.cite&quot; files; as an XML schema for exchange in web services that deal with sources; and used as the basis for UI and internal data structures in various desktop applications.

Citations in genealogical data are probably not terribly different from citations anywhere else, except that they probably deal with even more types of sources that many other disciplines (individual manuscripts, headstones, etc., in addition to more commonly cited sources like published books).  It would be very helpful if a standard citation format had a good answer for how to represent source citations from various existing models, such as those used by WorldCat/OCLC; GEDCOM; Zotero; BibTeX; and other existing &quot;standards&quot;.  A new model would not necessarily have to be a derivative of any of these, though there is some built-in adoption that happens by extending an existing standard rather than creating yet another one.  But by looking at the existing standards, a new standard can avoid missing things that are necessary, and can avoid reinventing things in a new way that is worse or at least no better than how it has already been done.

A mention was made above to the actual data that is in the source.  Modeling that data is not the purpose of a citation model.  A citation describes a &quot;source&quot; or a part thereof, not the data that the source gave you.  That would be the scope of a conclusional model like GEDCOM or a source data model for structured, extracted data.

A mention was made to ISBN.  That is one ID that can be used for some published sources, but not all.  OCLC/WorldCat is hopefully assigning IDs to its entries as well, but I don&#039;t know if they&#039;ve dealt with resolving duplicates when they accidentally get multiple entries for the same real source.  It would be great if a consortium could create a &quot;source authority&quot; to track sources, give them unique, long-lived IDs, and provide canonical, structured source citations for sources or parts of sources that are of interest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s a difference between a &#8220;file format&#8221; and a data model.  If a common data model for citations was defined, then that same model could be implemented as part of a GEDCOM extension (for conclusional genealogical data); implemented as a file format for &#8220;.cite&#8221; files; as an XML schema for exchange in web services that deal with sources; and used as the basis for UI and internal data structures in various desktop applications.</p>
<p>Citations in genealogical data are probably not terribly different from citations anywhere else, except that they probably deal with even more types of sources that many other disciplines (individual manuscripts, headstones, etc., in addition to more commonly cited sources like published books).  It would be very helpful if a standard citation format had a good answer for how to represent source citations from various existing models, such as those used by WorldCat/OCLC; GEDCOM; Zotero; BibTeX; and other existing &#8220;standards&#8221;.  A new model would not necessarily have to be a derivative of any of these, though there is some built-in adoption that happens by extending an existing standard rather than creating yet another one.  But by looking at the existing standards, a new standard can avoid missing things that are necessary, and can avoid reinventing things in a new way that is worse or at least no better than how it has already been done.</p>
<p>A mention was made above to the actual data that is in the source.  Modeling that data is not the purpose of a citation model.  A citation describes a &#8220;source&#8221; or a part thereof, not the data that the source gave you.  That would be the scope of a conclusional model like GEDCOM or a source data model for structured, extracted data.</p>
<p>A mention was made to ISBN.  That is one ID that can be used for some published sources, but not all.  OCLC/WorldCat is hopefully assigning IDs to its entries as well, but I don&#8217;t know if they&#8217;ve dealt with resolving duplicates when they accidentally get multiple entries for the same real source.  It would be great if a consortium could create a &#8220;source authority&#8221; to track sources, give them unique, long-lived IDs, and provide canonical, structured source citations for sources or parts of sources that are of interest.</p>
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		<title>By: Steven M. Law</title>
		<link>http://www.thinkgenealogy.com/2009/04/28/better-online-citations-details-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-983</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven M. Law</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 16:59:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkgenealogy.com/?p=559#comment-983</guid>
		<description>This is certainly a terrific idea and I&#039;ve wished for something along this line for the past several years. Your example is of a simple book citation, and there would be a need, of course, for dozens, if not hundreds of additional formats. I do like the idea that a commenter made of using Zotero. It&#039;s open source and the additional formats could be added to their &quot;library&quot; of formats.

You&#039;ve focused on the reference note portion of the citation, which sometimes omits details that appear in the source list entry--somehow the export needs to deal with both element sets: reference note citation elements and source list elements (which largely or completely overlap in some cases).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is certainly a terrific idea and I&#8217;ve wished for something along this line for the past several years. Your example is of a simple book citation, and there would be a need, of course, for dozens, if not hundreds of additional formats. I do like the idea that a commenter made of using Zotero. It&#8217;s open source and the additional formats could be added to their &#8220;library&#8221; of formats.</p>
<p>You&#8217;ve focused on the reference note portion of the citation, which sometimes omits details that appear in the source list entry&#8211;somehow the export needs to deal with both element sets: reference note citation elements and source list elements (which largely or completely overlap in some cases).</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Roy</title>
		<link>http://www.thinkgenealogy.com/2009/04/28/better-online-citations-details-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-963</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Roy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2009 21:08:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkgenealogy.com/?p=559#comment-963</guid>
		<description>Have you looked into &quot;microformats&quot; (http://microformats.org, cf. http://microformats.org/wiki/citation)? There&#039;s quite a bit of discussion/work there on this subject.

Certainly separate, though linked, entities for the source, citation and event would be needed (just as in GEDCOM) to allow re-use. In addition, some global source id (ISBN?) would be required to prevent duplicate &quot;sources&quot;.

 In many (esp. machine-generated) cases, the event of interest would be unknown. For example, Google Books may provide a source for a book and a citation for a page (or even a paragraph or sentence), but it won&#039;t know what  person or event you might extract from it.

The advantage of a semantic XHTML microformat approach is that a global search (Google) would be possible: eg. find all web pages that cite page 192 in a given source.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have you looked into &#8220;microformats&#8221; (<a href="http://microformats.org" rel="nofollow">http://microformats.org</a>, cf. <a href="http://microformats.org/wiki/citation)?" rel="nofollow">http://microformats.org/wiki/citation)?</a> There&#8217;s quite a bit of discussion/work there on this subject.</p>
<p>Certainly separate, though linked, entities for the source, citation and event would be needed (just as in GEDCOM) to allow re-use. In addition, some global source id (ISBN?) would be required to prevent duplicate &#8220;sources&#8221;.</p>
<p> In many (esp. machine-generated) cases, the event of interest would be unknown. For example, Google Books may provide a source for a book and a citation for a page (or even a paragraph or sentence), but it won&#8217;t know what  person or event you might extract from it.</p>
<p>The advantage of a semantic XHTML microformat approach is that a global search (Google) would be possible: eg. find all web pages that cite page 192 in a given source.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Drew Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.thinkgenealogy.com/2009/04/28/better-online-citations-details-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-956</link>
		<dc:creator>Drew Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 May 2009 17:46:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkgenealogy.com/?p=559#comment-956</guid>
		<description>Or better yet, MODS:
http://www.loc.gov/standards/mods/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Or better yet, MODS:<br />
<a href="http://www.loc.gov/standards/mods/" rel="nofollow">http://www.loc.gov/standards/mods/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Drew Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.thinkgenealogy.com/2009/04/28/better-online-citations-details-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-955</link>
		<dc:creator>Drew Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 May 2009 17:40:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkgenealogy.com/?p=559#comment-955</guid>
		<description>Some form of the RIS format done up in XML might be work looking into.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some form of the RIS format done up in XML might be work looking into.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Better Online Citations - Details Part 2 (GEDCOM) &#124; ThinkGenealogy</title>
		<link>http://www.thinkgenealogy.com/2009/04/28/better-online-citations-details-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-953</link>
		<dc:creator>Better Online Citations - Details Part 2 (GEDCOM) &#124; ThinkGenealogy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 May 2009 16:19:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkgenealogy.com/?p=559#comment-953</guid>
		<description>[...] Better Online Citations - Details Part 1 we examined how the QuickCheck model for “Book: Basic format” from Evidence Explained was coded [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Better Online Citations &#8211; Details Part 1 we examined how the QuickCheck model for “Book: Basic format” from Evidence Explained was coded [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Patti Hobbs</title>
		<link>http://www.thinkgenealogy.com/2009/04/28/better-online-citations-details-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-943</link>
		<dc:creator>Patti Hobbs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 17:57:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>What Tamura says makes a lot of sense. After trying several genealogy applications,  I found that I had the best citation gedcom exports by using the free form option in RootsMagic.  The citation exports with the &quot;title&quot; tag and therefore displays well on my TNG (The Next Generation) site.  However, that does mean writing all citations by hand.  I have decided that for myself, that I like the control that gives me as well the increasing familiarity with correct forms of citations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What Tamura says makes a lot of sense. After trying several genealogy applications,  I found that I had the best citation gedcom exports by using the free form option in RootsMagic.  The citation exports with the &#8220;title&#8221; tag and therefore displays well on my TNG (The Next Generation) site.  However, that does mean writing all citations by hand.  I have decided that for myself, that I like the control that gives me as well the increasing familiarity with correct forms of citations.</p>
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		<title>By: Randy Seaver</title>
		<link>http://www.thinkgenealogy.com/2009/04/28/better-online-citations-details-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-941</link>
		<dc:creator>Randy Seaver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:02:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkgenealogy.com/?p=559#comment-941</guid>
		<description>Excellent comparison of  how the three programs handle EE-style source citations.  I think FTM 2009 also has a Year of Publication entry, which you don&#039;t show in your comparison chart.

Thanks for the detailed explanation of how this will work.  

It will be interesting to see which database company will step up and be the first to do what you suggest, and make a marketing issue of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent comparison of  how the three programs handle EE-style source citations.  I think FTM 2009 also has a Year of Publication entry, which you don&#8217;t show in your comparison chart.</p>
<p>Thanks for the detailed explanation of how this will work.  </p>
<p>It will be interesting to see which database company will step up and be the first to do what you suggest, and make a marketing issue of it.</p>
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		<title>By: Tamura Jones</title>
		<link>http://www.thinkgenealogy.com/2009/04/28/better-online-citations-details-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-940</link>
		<dc:creator>Tamura Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:03:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkgenealogy.com/?p=559#comment-940</guid>
		<description>Mark,

This brief comparison of these three applications clearly shows that there is need for a formal  specification to support any citation standard, EE-style or otherwise. The idea that several vendors have, that an individual name or place name can and should be split up in parts is perfectly reasonable. The issue is that for data to transfer correctly, the various applications need to do the same thing.

Although XML is an obvious choice as a vendor-neutral and widely supported base format, citations only make sense in context, and here that context is genealogy. Therefore, the citation format needs to be part of or at least integrate with a genealogy format.

Also, as we discussed by email, whatever its technical merits, no one is really eager to support Yet Another File Format. Therefore, the most promising way forward may be to seek to standardise how EE-style citations should be supported in GEDCOM. That integrates with the genealogy and additionally builds on work that these vendors have already done. You will not be asking them to do something new, merely to standardise what they are already doing. 

This could be formalised as a multi-vendor GEDCOM extension that defines how to provide EE-style citations, just like the multi-vendor GEDCOM EL extension defines how to provide first-class place name support.
Then, when GEDCOM is replaced by some XML-based format, all the work already done will naturally carry forward to that new format.

- Tamura</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark,</p>
<p>This brief comparison of these three applications clearly shows that there is need for a formal  specification to support any citation standard, EE-style or otherwise. The idea that several vendors have, that an individual name or place name can and should be split up in parts is perfectly reasonable. The issue is that for data to transfer correctly, the various applications need to do the same thing.</p>
<p>Although XML is an obvious choice as a vendor-neutral and widely supported base format, citations only make sense in context, and here that context is genealogy. Therefore, the citation format needs to be part of or at least integrate with a genealogy format.</p>
<p>Also, as we discussed by email, whatever its technical merits, no one is really eager to support Yet Another File Format. Therefore, the most promising way forward may be to seek to standardise how EE-style citations should be supported in GEDCOM. That integrates with the genealogy and additionally builds on work that these vendors have already done. You will not be asking them to do something new, merely to standardise what they are already doing. </p>
<p>This could be formalised as a multi-vendor GEDCOM extension that defines how to provide EE-style citations, just like the multi-vendor GEDCOM EL extension defines how to provide first-class place name support.<br />
Then, when GEDCOM is replaced by some XML-based format, all the work already done will naturally carry forward to that new format.</p>
<p>- Tamura</p>
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